hey
welcome to sputnik orbiting the world
with me george galloway and me joseph
hyatt standing in for gayatri the world
has been transfixed by the tsunami of
violence unleashed over the last few
weeks in the tiny gaza strip where
almost 2 million people are trapped in
one of the most densely populated places
in the world
gaza long under siege is now utterly
invaded thousands of people most of them
civilians many of them women and
children have been slain or maimed
hospitals are collapsing literally under
shell fire un schools six of them have
been bombarded from land sea and air
with the loss of scores of children
little noticed in this blizzard of shot
and shell has been the equally
disastrous contemporaneous collapse of
libya the state appears to have
disintegrated warring militias laying
waste to the country oil tankers on fire
in the capital the death toll
incalculable to date and it's getting
worse helping us make a sense of it all
is leading journalist hafzah kara
mustafa who's reported and analyzed for
most of the world's top outfits in
recent years hafsah let's start with the
with gaza
what would have to happen
for the world to tell israel to stop
after all
six united nations schools have now been
bombarded scores maybe hundreds of
children have been killed and maimed in
those schools
the un secretary general has said
there can be nothing more shameful than
killing sleeping children
the united nations top official in gaza
is weeping on camera governments all
over the world are lamely calling for a
ceasefire israel is bulldozing on
regardless what's going to happen
nothing because israel is never punished
for anything it does it actually has the
green light in fact from the
international community to continue
doing what it's doing it's had a pat on
the back from all the leading
international leaders and therefore it
feels it can continue shamelessly
despite all the images despite all the
the devastation that we're witnessing so
really as long as there's no absolutely
no pressure from any of the leading
supposedly democrat democracies of the
world then there's no reason for israel
to stop it will continue it has in its
site the extermination of the
palestinian people and it's doing it
with total impunity well i'll come back
to that point in a minute but within
three hours of
obama making the strongest condemnation
of the massacre in the un school
he agreed to resupply
israel with the very ammunition which
had just destroyed the u.n school
what's the us
double face on this and this is this is
when the word hutzba comes into place
because this is utterly ridiculous and
shameful i don't know i i'm falling i'm
running out of adjectives to really
describe the policy of america at the
moment but the bbc when i was on my way
in here for this interview is still
repeating
the utterly absurd adage that this
operation is to destroy tunnels
the worst aspect of the bbc reporting is
that the more criticism is faced and
there have been protests outside the hq
and still it's going along that line
which is to actually show the israeli
line of thinking that they're doing this
in reaction to hamas there is almost no
explanation that whatever hamas is doing
and it's almost farcical what they're
doing it's in reaction to the occupation
and the devastation and the the
suffering of the palestinian people for
the past seven years now this idea of
tunnels is is again the joke of the
story we know that israel burst some of
the most sophisticated weaponry and
technology across the region and in fact
in the world so they had all the
capabilities to know and to pinpoint
these tunnels ages ago without actually
having to go in and shell and flatten
the entire gauze so this is just another
excuse for israel to continue now tell
us uh
moving to the maghreb
about the situation in libya i mentioned
in the introduction
that whilst all this is happening and of
course big conflicts in ukraine and
other big international stories libya
is falling apart how
and why
falling apart is almost i mean now it's
a given we would would be tempted to say
that libya is in the midst of a civil
war but that was almost six months after
the ousting of gaddafi libya is today a
failed state it's run by warring
militias it's been heavily armed in the
ark during the the so-called revolution
which is ultimately a regime change
operation led by nato um qatar provided
an in our inundated libya with arms what
happens today libya is a problem made up
of essentially very youthful populations
majority of people are under the age of
30 heavily armed all which have no
no wish to to run a a well-structured
country they're just running riot and
each to their own and it's it's not a
it's a failed state it's the new somalia
of africa what are these militias
fighting about
uh
it's not even regionalism it's not like
the east and the west of the country are
fighting to separate themselves off from
libya that would at least have some
logic however
bizarre and uh reprehensible
but it's just militias fighting for
power isn't it and wealth i mean just
just to come back on one thing had we
not had the example of iraq in 2003 we
could at least be surprised but we now
know for a fact that bombing supposedly
bombing countries into democracy doesn't
work so what is happening today was
entirely predictable from day one the
minute western nations led by david
cameron and sarkozy voted went to the
u.n for supposedly a um
which turned into regime change
we knew very well that this would happen
this is what happened when you bomb a
country when there is a power vacuum and
especially a country that was held
together really very much by gaddafi and
by his sort of sense of keeping the the
tribal areas in check this was
inevitable what the warring militias are
fighting about is is everything and
nothing they're just heavily armed kids
doing running riot and above on top of
the arms that were supplied by qatar we
also have the arsenal the the national
arsenal that was accumulated in 40 years
by gaddafi that is now in the hands of
all sorts of warring militias and terror
groups that are running right across
libya and also across the sahel belt
is it going to spill over
i'm asking myself
why should it be isolated to
libya
there
must be a message going out to other
potential
so-called jihadis
that uh if you can get your hands on the
hardware
and get yourself a foreign patron
you could actually carve yourself out a
bit of power and wealth and it's
happened already it happened in mali
when there was the overtake of by
al-qaeda and the maghreb in the azawad
region that was a direct consequence of
the arms that were flowing in from from
libya
you know at the time under gaddafi that
region which was slightly internal and
there were you know aspirations of
independence from certain parts were
kept in check but with the the influx of
arms flooding into the region loads of
various different terror groups got hold
of arms and did what they did and the
hostage taking in algeria and the gas
bond of algeria last january in january
2013 was very much a consequence of that
here we had a group that was that barely
had any arms suddenly found themselves
possessing the most sophisticated
weaponry that just flooded in and hence
we saw the hostage the major hostage
crisis in algeria and obviously what
does seem to be happening in the
background is i've had a lot of qatari
real estate companies and all the arms
of the developing qatari nation with its
wealth
are somehow getting in behind the scenes
into to libya and there seems to be a
lot of
land and areas being occupied almost
secretly awaiting the outcome of this
conflict i think that was the original
idea very early on but because the
situation uh disintegrated almost
immediately and i think they've just
taken a step back i mean as far as
they're concerned they funded this it
was almost a joke to them it was there
was a personal animosity between the
shaykh of qatar and gaddafi he got his
own back on qadhafi and we saw the you
know the ignominious death of of the
leader of the libyan leader so he got
his back he got his back on on qaddafi
and now really it's irrelevant what
they've invested they've invested in in
war they've had their war and now the
rest is is on hold on well they've lost
it now i mean whatever if their idea was
an investment it's one that's gone bad
it would have to be written off in
accountancy terms uh oil production in
libya is now a fraction of its capacity
as i said in the introduction the oil
storage tanks are actually on fire right
now in tripoli the capital
and the
country doesn't look like it's going to
be governable in the next 30 years so
they'd have to wait a long time for a
return on that investment i don't think
their main objective was in any any way
investment anyway but just came back to
touching back on the oil companies the
oil companies make a profit either way
you know if the output is reduced then
the price goes up on the international
market
if there are more if there's more output
then they're selling more because other
countries that don't produce stock up
when the prices go down so either way
the all companies make a killing out of
this story you know ultimately it's
libya that's lost in the libyan people
who've lost out that's really it but
there can be virtually no foreign
presence now in libya all the embassies
have closed except the british and the
italian i'm not sure
why they are continuing but everyone
else has gone it's not safe for anyone
the airport is inoperable indeed is one
of the major sites of the fighting so no
one can fly in or out
the u.s
ambassador was murdered by the very
people the united states put in power
the al-qaeda elements in in benghazi
uh
is anybody making any money out of libya
absolutely the security companies that
are going to come in i mean as i said
the parallel with iraq is very obvious
and there are two major sectors that
have thrived uh in the invasion of iraq
to the security companies and the oil
companies now you know move over to
libya and in order to ensure the output
future output of oil then that's going
to come into the hands of these major
security companies that are incredibly
successful and and make all their money
from chaos essentially in the arab world
and of course in africa and libya is
arab and african so it's it really is
they're their ultimate goal and the
ultimate dream
well i mean as nato success stories go
libya has to be the nadir
at least so far hafsah you're a star
we'll have you back on the sputnik
before long thank you very much indeed
coming up after the break we'll be
discussing the state of human rights ha
throughout the middle east and the
different approach western governments
and media take to case studies like say
syria and bahrain saudi arabia and egypt
don't miss it
welcome back to sputnik it seems almost
fanciful indulgence to be discussing
human rights in today's middle east
where an entire people's very existence
is under threat where dictatorship
usually western-backed has its boot on
the throat of almost all of their people
but that in a way is precisely why we
must discuss it after all it is the
so-called moral authority of democracy
the rule of law and human rights which
western countries perpetually draw upon
when justifying their policies towards
the rest of the world which often
includes invading and occupying it rory
donahue is a journalist who has a long
track record of working in the region on
subjects as diverse as the united arab
emirates and all the way to gaza and
beyond and i'm glad to say rory joins us
now now let's start at the gulf
if we may
you and i
both have our difficulties with some of
the governments there
in your case because you cast a critical
eye an objective journalistic and
analytical eye
on one of the governments in the gulf
this is uh par for the course isn't it
if you look too closely into the arab
gulf dictatorships or authoritarian
regimes well you probably won't get back
in
yeah i think the gulf monarchies have a
long history of not tolerating any
descent whether it's from their own
citizens or external voices
and a large part of this is through the
fact they don't want to open up a
political space to allow people to be
involved in the governance process and
that's the that's the history of
monarchy really not just in the gulf but
but elsewhere
and there is very little to say that
there's been any opening up
in the gulf states although
cities like abu dhabi and dubai now
enjoy global appeal
it's superficial i think
yes and
of course the west is best friends with
these monarchies
for all the talk of the need for human
rights and the rule of law in a place
like syria for example the west seems to
have very few difficulties dealing with
the most authoritarian
regimes in the gulf is that all just
about money
i think that
it's very difficult to view what the
west does in the middle east and the
gulf
on a principled level they clearly use
language that suits their needs whenever
that may be if it's human rights
discourse or it's stability or it's
anything they choose to to get what they
want and more often than not obviously
securing these interests involves oil
contracts and arms deals and
and such stability only matters when the
interests are being met in the west and
so that discourse can be quickly
abandoned for something else when they
feel that there's a chance to further
their interests or if someone is maybe
not quite playing ball when it comes to
securing those
contracts money whatever it may be so i
think that you can view any language
used in the west by politicians as
disposable
and it's very rarely if ever used on a
principled level i don't think this can
be tell me about bahrain this is
one of the longest running revolutions
in the current middle east as a
proportion of their tiny population a
very large number of people have been
killed wounded tortured imprisoned
yet that never makes on to the news
either in the arab world
or in the west why
i think that a lot of people would say
that it's got something to do with the
us basing their fifth fleet on the
strategically important island in
between iran and
saudi arabia
that's certainly the case i think in in
terms of the american policy with
britain britain has a long history of
course with bahrain and continues to be
its closest friends we have a vested
interest and very long close
relationship with the sunni monarchy
and this flies in the face of a sheer
majority who have been revolting now
since february 2011 and appear no closer
to achieving their goal and in large
part i think that is down to the
diplomatic support provided by bahrain's
allies principally the uk and america
and of course across the causeway saudi
arabia what's the current scorecard of
human rights in our very best friend in
the region i think saudi arabia has
one of the most
deplorable human rights records not only
in the region if not if not the world i
mean
their
toleration of dissents
is really concerning and their new
terrorism laws this year have been used
to prosecute human rights lawyers and
they tolerate very little
open debates in saudi arabia and
obviously it goes beyond that being the
only country in the world that doesn't
allow women to drive and it also meddles
in in other places as well including
bahrain where obviously they they sent
in the troops in 2011 to break up
protests at the roundabout which
resulted in scores of deaths among uh
protesters but aside from the politics
what about the human rights of
individuals and the citizens across this
region i mean there was a story this
week i read of you know a saudi arabian
man being sentenced to three years and
450 lashes uh for meeting men through
twitter you know you hear heinous things
that happen to these individuals you
know what about their personal rights
their human rights
well they don't have any in saudi arabia
for instance where obviously
homosexuality is not tolerated in a
country where you don't tolerate any
criticism they're not likely to be very
open on their
sexuality laws but why is there no fuss
about this what why don't wander
campaigns boycott demands and so on
where are the the pink campaigners who
are always uh
after russia for example where no such
thing could ever happen i think the the
people who campaign on gay rights are
likely trying to make this cause but it
doesn't get into the mainstream
discourse because of our very close ties
with saudi arabia now no
tour de horizon of human rights would be
complete without talking about palestine
which is the country existentially
threatened its very existence the people
country long ago was wiped off the map
but the people are actually threatened
now especially in
in gaza
what's though the situation
in the west bank where you have
ostensibly a palestinian authority
how are they doing on human rights
well not very well
and i think that
in the west bank the palestinian
authority in recent weeks when there's
been mass protests from nablus to
ramallah and hebron
they've been involved in shooting at
protesters themselves and a lot of
palestinians certainly view the
authority as being
acting on israel and america's behalf
perhaps because of the funding and
perhaps because of the actions that
they've they've done
scores of palestinians have died in the
west bank in in recent weeks since the
gaza
offensive started
killed not only by by israelis but also
with the willing complicity of the
palestinian authority abbas is running
around the region
seemingly in a desperate fashion to try
and reclaim some relevance in all of
this
and i think also it has to be said that
following the 2006 free and fair
election in the palestinian authority
uh hamas won
and only rebel were to take power in
gaza forcibly from fatah so the
palestinian authorities certainly don't
have a mandate in in terms of uh
representing the palestinian people and
i think it's an urgent need for
elections to be held so people can voice
their concerns well to paraphrase henry
kissinger which is the first time i've
ever done that it's a pity they both
can't lose
hamas and fatah
have both seen their support fall
markedly ironically this is really
invasion of gaza
which is
allowing the palestinian resistance to
get to grips face to face on the ground
and taking quite a toll actually on the
invading forces it's probably done
hamas quite a bit of good electorally
yeah i i think that if you just look at
the protests in the west bank there have
been green hamas flags flying in nearly
all of them and in quite high numbers
and within gaza itself prior to this as
you rightly said support for hamas had
fallen quite dramatically they weren't
governing very well the people weren't
their lives was appalling it's not
necessarily just hamas's fault i mean
the eight-year-long siege has obviously
changing things there but this offensive
certainly has
markedly increased the support for hamas
whether this lasts for the long term is
obviously
unclear
the
catastrophe that's now
unfolding in gaza
it's all it's approaching operation
cast-led levels of deaths
and i think has maybe surpassed cass-led
for wounded already
atrocities like the bombing of
united nations schools and the
destruction of the lives of scores of
people in them
provoking the normally comatose united
nations even to
raise a whimper of
protest
how can we talk about human rights when
there's actually an extermination going
on
i think it's difficult to talk in a
traditional human rights discourse when
it comes to what's happening in gaza
because it does go beyond that it it
goes to the
to the very heart of the palestinian
issue which is the the the seemingly uh
intent of israel to remove palestinians
from from the land that they've
inhabited for from millennia
um i also think that when you know the
situation is terrible when like today
you have the british newspaper the daily
meal issuing an editorial questioning
israel's actions in gaza i think that
it's got to that point now where where
everyone is questioning what's going on
what's happened in gaza is is shocking
to the whole world
not only u.n facilities have been
attacked but a disabled charity uh you
know people have been killed i was
supposed to shift hospital hospitals
have been regularly yeah
um
and i was speaking the other day to uh
hassan al-halak he's uh his family was
born last week he was the gaza scholar
oxford brooks last year his house was
bombed his wife pregnant wife was killed
his two little boys his mother and his
sister he has got first degree burns
over most of his body
i'm not sure that this can be in any way
justified it certainly doesn't fit into
the terrorist narrative that israel
tells us because hassan was a bright
young spark and is working at the bank
of palestine and has been celebrated in
the west academically and his life is
now torn apart a ceasefire or enter the
occupation will not repair what's
happened to that young man
can i get just one
last quick answer from you i'd like to
tour this horizon with you all day
uh egypt
we're
not we're now in a situation where tony
blair and the western governments are
hailing
the military junta of general sisi
yet human rights in egypt are arguably
next to gaza
the very worst of all
that's certainly the case i mean
an egyptian monitoring group wiki thrawa
say that there's been over 40 000 people
jailed for political reasons since the
military coup last year what a year and
a half yeah
well just over a year just over a year
100 sentenced to death whether this will
be carried out or not it isn't clear but
it doesn't really matter because the
idea is to spread fear amongst the
population not to question what's going
on and what we can see now with gaza and
egypt is that egypt is certainly
part of a an alliance with israel i mean
i i think that there's been a lot of
anger at the egyptian ceasefire proposal
which many view is just being a tony
blair initiative facilitated by the
israelis and what's happened to egypt is
uh is terrifying for the kind of
revolutionary forces in the region
because they are trying to rule back the
changes that we've seen since 2011.
rory donahue thank you very much for
joining us on the sputnik
now it's your turn to tell us what you
think through the portals of social
media what's rattling joseph well on the
point of libya obviously being in chaos
uh mr frog says another example of
western arrogance that they know best
and their democracy brand must be
accepted it is absurd you know to say
that they've introduced democracy into
libya the prime minister has been
kidnapped gunmen take over the
parliament every other week
people have been assassinated the u.s
ambassador and so on
some democracy show mistake terrible and
of course on the human rights offences
uh and the situation in gaza i see me
says will there be a stop to this how
can the world allow this it's one month
of brutal murders and uh martin darius
says israel should be charged with
committing war crimes well that's all
we've got time for this week sir but
don't forget you can contact us on
twitter it's rt underscore sputnik and
of course follow us on facebook sputnik
on russia today but from me joseph hyatt
it's goodbye and from me george galloway
it's been marvelous
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